Gary Hoetker
From:
California, USA
Posted 6 Nov 2018 8:58 am
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Hi this the rookie again. I've read where there is some disagreement and confusion about the Day copedent. What is THE way to go with my Marlen starter pedal steel (3 pedals, 4 KL) that was apparently set to Day tuning. As always, thank you for your assistance. |
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
Posted 6 Nov 2018 9:08 am
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https://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=725 |
Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Posted 6 Nov 2018 10:48 am
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Gary, be sure to check the comments below that copedent by Leonard Reed because the chart is incorrect. When people set up their guitar to the Day setup, well... does any modern Day player really set up their guitar exactly like Jimmy Day's? Or is it more that the main bread and butter changes are like his, but a few are different? He had some unusual things going on, some of which may have evolved out of the era when there was no half-stop mechanism on the 2nd string. I wonder if once it did become available, he just stuck with what he had already learned copedent-wise and didn't adopt it? That's great, but it doesn't necessarily mean we should mimic every change on his entire codepedent. Like most things in the psg world, there is only vague standardization... there is no definitive 'THE Day setup' or 'THE anything' setup for that matter. Just Day-like setups that are more common these days, and those that are less. The essence of the Day setup -- and the only aspect that is fixed and standardized -- is that the pedals are in the opposite order than the Emmons. And it's easier for some people to hold down B and rock on and off of A when they're arranged that way, so they opt for the Day setup. You start with that pedal arrangement and build the knee lever setup around that base. There is disagreement on how the levers should be arranged, so this is my take. On any variant of the Day setup, the main issue is where the E-raises and E-lowers are. In particular, you need to be able to hit A+F and B+E-lower positions without going into foot contortions on the pedals: The most common way to do it is to set it up like Jimmy's guitar: LKR raised both E’s to F (the 'F' lever) This makes the A+F position a natural maneuver. You roll your knee right and the foot can naturally be on that A-Pedal (furthest pedal to the right). And to get the B+E-lower seventh chord, it's helpful if the E-lower is on either of the right knees (doesn't matter which one, but I think RKL is most common). Meanwhile, if you were to try to put the E-lowers on the unclaimed left lever, that move would be really awkward. For example, you would be trying hold down B-pedal while hitting that LKL lever (this assumes you've already allocated the other left lever to do E-raises so you would be forced to put the lower on LKL). Tommy White manages to make this work... but he's not of this Earth. So put E-lowers on one of the right-side knee levers and you're good to go. Oh, and if it were my guitar, I would go 'modern' and lower both E-strings (not just the 8th), even though Jimmy didn't do that (nor Lloyd Green, for that matter). It's been common for 40 years or more... The other changes can logically be on the remaining two unused knees, your choice. It's most popular to have the 9th and 2nd string lower (with half-stop at 'D') on RKR. And then LKL can be the wild card (1st string raise? 5th string lower? 6th string lower? 7th string raise?). Lots of options there and it's personal preference. Maybe others can fill you in on those finer details. |
Gary Hoetker
From:
California, USA
Posted 6 Nov 2018 1:22 pm
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This Forum is always an education. Thanks so much for your help. I'm going to do what you suggest. Best. |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
Posted 6 Nov 2018 2:48 pm
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I've been a 'Day' player for over forty years and I always assumed that 'Day' only referred to the A and B pedals and the E raise-and-lower knees. After that I made my choices as I learned from experience. Lots have their B to Bb lower on the vertical - I like it on RKL. My RKR is the standard 2 and 9 lower but lots of 'Emmons' players have that in the same place. By the way, I've just had a change fitted - my LKV now lowers my 10th to a G#!!! I love it. |
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Posted 6 Nov 2018 2:59 pm
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I play the Day setup, and having both E string changes on the left knee doesn't present any problems at all. As Tucker pointed out, the E raises on LKR creates a natural movement with the A pedal for the C# chord. Likewise, the E lowers on LKL is a natural movement with the B pedal to get the B7 chord (or a partial chord). But there is no reason not to place one or both changes on the right knee. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
Posted 6 Nov 2018 3:17 pm
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I play Day setup and have both E levers on the left knee. I certainly don't have any non-earthly powers but find the movement of rocking my foot off the A pedal and engaging LKL while remaining on the B pedal as natural as going to A + LKR and this is one of the moves I love on Day setup. Even going from B+LKL and squeezing in the A pedal is a completely comfortable move for me. It always helps me to remember what the knee levers do to remember that they raise or lower the Es by moving in the same direction as I would move the bar. I also like having everything to do with strings 1&2 on my right knee. But as everyone has said, there are no standards and you have to find out whats most comfortable for you. |
Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Posted 6 Nov 2018 3:40 pm
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It's been a long time since I played Day (as part of a 12U setup)... and I didn't do it this way, but I suppose E-lower on LKL is natural enough with the B-pedal. I concede to the current players' thinking on the E-lower. It can go anywhere -- and it's maybe even most natural on LKL -- just as E-raise makes most sense on LKR. Thanks, guys. Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 6 Nov 2018 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Posted 6 Nov 2018 3:51 pm
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I've played the Day setup almost forever (over 50 years), but I've never liked the E raises/lowers on the left knee. ![]() Tried it, once, but never cared for doing 90% of my playing on the same leg. It just made more sense to me to "share the effort". |
Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
Posted 6 Nov 2018 8:59 pm What is THE correct Day E-9 Copendent
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The only thing that seems DAY STANDARD is Pedals Left to Right, 1 C, 2 B, 3 A. I started Day Setup with 3 pedals about 1968. In about 1995 the MSA I got was Day Setup too, 3 pedals and 4 levers. The LKL lowered the 4-8 strings to D#. LKR raised 4-8 to F. To me it was great, Roll knee left and rock foot left for 7th chord. Roll knee right, Roll left knee Right and rock foot right and up 3 frets move. I have seen Day set up with LKL Lower 4-8 to D#, And the 4-8 F raise on the Right Knee either L or R. This way the owner could get a continued raise or lower of the 4th and 8th D# to F with no pause in the notes. I have seen guitars that the pedals had been changed from Day to Emmons or Emmons to Day and the knee levers were not changed. That is hard for me rolling knee one way and rocking foot in opposite direction, Not comfortable and precise to me. It seems that after you get the pedals set up, There seems to be nothing carved in stone on the knee levers set up I have seen or found. In December 2016 I went to a S12 U Newman tuning with Day pedals C-B-A-4-5-6-7 and 4-8 F raise RKL and D# lower RKR. It has took a lot of work on my part to retrain my brain to this new setup. |
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Posted 7 Nov 2018 8:55 am
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On a universal, I would definitely have the E lowers on the right knee. I wouldn't have it on LKL like I do know. I don't think I would be comfortable trying to keep the LKL lever activated and try to reach the pedals for the B6 side. I have a 12 ext E9 now. I switched from a D10. I am thinking of adding pedals to make it a uni. At that point I will move the E lowers to the right knee. That is reason I never went to a uni. I'll just have to relearn what I have been doing for 47 years. It may have to happen. |
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Posted 7 Nov 2018 9:10 am Re: What is THE correct Day E-9 Copendent
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As for the first line in your post (I bolded it), almost all the Day players I talked to look at it that way. The Emmons and Day setups basically was the split of the Isaacs pedal. I've never heard of knee levers being on certain "required" knee lever locations. As for the D# to F movement, I can't here the "bump" that people talk of unless I am making the move slowly. I only know it's there because I can feel it. I've tried to see if other people, mostly musicians, and asked them if noticed any difference between that movement and the same movement using the A&B pedals. Nobody said they did. I didn't try on steel players though, as this subject is in our brains. And, Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 8 Nov 2018 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
Paul Pearson
From:
Alabama, USA
Posted 7 Nov 2018 4:16 pm Day set up
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I started playing steel about 1982 about 2weeks into trying get a grip on the peadels my teacher played day setup I tried his it was liked a light switch came on so he swapped my guitar over to day setup I've looked back over the years I have swapped the knee leavers around all over the guitar but have always came back to using my left knee to lower and raise my es this is where they are the most comfortable for me no more changing |
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
Posted 8 Nov 2018 3:49 pm Tommy White
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I like Tommy White's Copedent. It's a modified Day Setup... _________________ Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family |
Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Posted 8 Nov 2018 4:15 pm
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I’m with you Richard, both E raises and lowers on left knee work really good and just makes everything natural to me. Only reasons I can see to not put one on right knee is you actually loose a move by having E raise and lower on different knees. There would be no reason ever to hit both knees at same time, therefore just put them on one knee. Also, only other reason I can think of is that the E lower is probably most used lever on a guitar so I think it would be better to keep it away from leg or foot that uses volume pedal. Doesn’t pose a problem with me but can see where it could. D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color |
Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
Posted 9 Nov 2018 8:15 am
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Exactly. Mine is Day w/E lower on LKL and E raise on LKR. As a beginner, along with the fact that they are the most used levers, it makes a lot of sense. Also, getting a grip on the volume pedal is hard enough w/out having to use knees so much. The changes on my right pedal I don't use as much, except for the RKL which lowers the 6th string from G# to F#, and is a little bit of a pain with the volume pedal. My LKV lowers the B, and is a great change but can be a little awkward as well. |
Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
Posted 10 Nov 2018 9:30 am
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The first PSG I owned after starting on a Sho-Bud Maverick was a BMI S-10, 3x4 that came with a basic Emmons setup. While studying the Winnie Winston book, I noticed that many of my favorite players seemed to have some variation of the Day setup. Since the BMI was very easy to change copedants, I switched it to a Hal Rugg/John Hughey type Day variation and have never looked back. I have my E changes on left knee. _________________ Drew Pierce Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals. |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
Posted 10 Nov 2018 9:57 am
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Hughey, Rugg, Tommy - and Jimmy himself. There have been some pretty stellar 'Day' players. Didn't Weldon play that way too? _________________ Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400! ---------------------------------- |
Russ Tkac
Posted 10 Nov 2018 10:31 am
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And Rusty Young! I played DAY for the first 30 years and then Emmons when I got a nice Emmons S10 push pull and didn't want to switch it around. I've stayed with Emmons set up the last 13 years on my ZB's and will probably stay that way but still feel comfortable with DAY set up as well. |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
Posted 10 Nov 2018 10:35 am
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There's Rusty in your profile pic, Russ! He was a huge influence on me in my earliest days of playing steel. I'll never forget 'Hoe Down'! _________________ Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400! ---------------------------------- |
Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
Posted 10 Nov 2018 10:20 pm What is the THE correct Day E-9 Copendent
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Another was Mr. JEFF NEWMAN, All his Steel Guitar Lessons was made with him playing DAY set up guitars. |
Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
Posted 11 Nov 2018 2:57 pm
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Yes, Weldon and many others. Worth repeating here, in response to the OP, Jimmy Day didn't actually play "Day setup" as it's generally configured today. That is, as posted many times before, Jimmy didn't have his left knees set up the way most people refer to as "Day setup". The "CBA" pedal arrangement is true Jimmy Day and remains so. But E knee lever changes vary somewhat from player to payer. Although to my thinking, LKL lowers and LKR raises is not only more ergonomic, but also more musically intuitive. Raises go up and lowers go down. Last edited by Drew Pierce on 12 Nov 2018 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
Posted 12 Nov 2018 12:56 am
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Do you mean LKL lower and LKR raise? |
Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
Posted 12 Nov 2018 6:37 am
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Yes. That's what I meant to say. Dyslexic I guess. I'll edit the post. |
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
Posted 13 Nov 2018 4:56 pm As far as the E's go.....
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As far as the E's go I think it makes much more sense to have both the raise and lower on the left leg no matter if you play Emmons or Day pedals. I've been playing with the E's lowered on RKL for 42 years because I started out on an S-10 Sho Bud with just right knee levers. Now am switching all my PSG's to have both on the left leg. Half of them are changed and the others soon will be. Yes it's a bit of a pain breaking an old habit, but will be well worth the effort. _________________ Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html 2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel. Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th. Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning. 1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project. 1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |